FULIST

[Jim Bohnsack]

I agree with you FULIST was wonderful and was a great improvement over the
watered down FLIST. The full strength BROWSE, it's companion, is also an
improvement over the IBM provided version of BROWSE. C'mon, IBM, you put
out IOS3270, which was the other leg of the stool that Theo Alkema, RIP,
provided internally but the real FULIST and BROWSE would also be
improvements.

I think that Jim Elliott did the leg work for IOS3270. Please help, Jim.
Jim

When I used to work at IBM, some 10 years ago, we had the IUO FULIST
utility installed on our CMS system.
Since then I've worked on MVS systems and haven't missed it, but I've just
started working with a CMS customer again and the best utility I can find
seems to be the watered-down FLIST.
Does anyone know if FULIST escaped its IUO classification and if so, where
it might be found? And, of course, is it compatible with z/vm (v4.4 here)?
If not, are there are reasonable alternatives that don't drive people to
distraction?
Ian
...

Jim Bohnsack
Cornell Univ.
[phone]

[Alan Ackerman]

I prefer FILELIST to FLIST, because it gives you the full power of XEDIT
(especially MACRO ALL). But I have no experience with FULIST to compare it
to FILELIST. I also prefer XEDIT to BROWSE. Sometimes that means running
in a VERY large virtual machine.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:25:17 -0600, Ian S. Worthington

When I used to work at IBM, some 10 years ago, we had the IUO FULIST
utility installed on our CMS system.
Since then I've worked on MVS systems and haven't missed it, but I've just
started working with a CMS customer again and the best utility I can find
seems to be the watered-down FLIST.
Does anyone know if FULIST escaped its IUO classification and if so, where
it might be found? And, of course, is it compatible with z/vm (v4.4

here)?

If not, are there are reasonable alternatives that don't drive people to
distraction?
Ian
...
=========================================================================

[Jim Bohnsack]

This falls in the realm of a "religious" argument. 25 years ago, I heard
the same arguments in IBM. I also remember discussions on:

EDGAR vs. XEDIT
EXEC2 vs. REXX
ISPF vs. CMS
SPF editor vs. XEDIT
right-left scrolling of a window (should the outside frame go right or left
or the inside content go right or left)
PFK 4/5 vs. PFK 8/7 (or was it 7/8--no it was 8/7)
the REXX function CENTRE vs CENTER (Mike solved it by giving us both)

Jim

Post by Alan Ackerman
I prefer FILELIST to FLIST, because it gives you the full power of XEDIT
(especially MACRO ALL). But I have no experience with FULIST to compare it
to FILELIST. I also prefer XEDIT to BROWSE. Sometimes that means running
in a VERY large virtual machine.

Jim Bohnsack
Cornell Univ.
[phone]

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Jim Bohnsack
This falls in the realm of a "religious" argument. 25 years ago, I
EDGAR vs. XEDIT
EXEC2 vs. REXX
ISPF vs. CMS
SPF editor vs. XEDIT
right-left scrolling of a window (should the outside frame go right
or left or the inside content go right or left) PFK 4/5 vs. PFK 8/7
(or was it 7/8--no it was 8/7) the REXX function CENTRE vs CENTER
(Mike solved it by giving us both)
Jim

there was edgar battle against red and ned (red and ned were never
released) ... they were about co-equal in time with edgar ... which
predated xedit work by a number of years.

one of the edgar arguments was the up/down commands. the frame of
reference for edgar was the program ... the metaphor is the file is a
scroll and the screen is a window on the scroll; the edgar up/down was
with respect to the program pulling the scroll up/down i.e. "up" met
moving the scroll "up" (moving window towards the bottom of the file)
and "down" met moving the scroll "down" (i.e. moving window towards
the top of the file). the others had a human frame of reference
... rather than the program frame of reference ... the windows were an
extension of the eyes ... where moving "up" met moving the window up
(moving towards the top of the file).

the red&ned arguments vis-a-vis xedit were because both red&ned had
extensive scripting and macro capabilities (which edgar lacked) and
were a number of years more mature than xedit (while xavier was in
endicott vm group while both red & ned were developed by individuals
at different internal datacenters). someplace, i might even have stuff
from the period on the red/ned/xedit discussions.

one of the big ISPF difficulties (shared by some number of other well
known mvs software products) was the difficulty in transitioning from
free software to priced software ... and the ground rules for
calculating price based on true internal costs vis-a-vis market
forcast. for some topic drift ... collected posts on the resource
manager being the first kernel priced software (and other posts
related to transition to priced software after the unbundling
announcement on 6/23/69)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#unbundle

the really big cms battles were with the vspc/pco group; misc.
past posts mentioning vspc/pco.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#49 any 70's era supercomputers that ran as slow as today's supercompu
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#51 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#26 LISTSERV Discussion List For USS Questions?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#0 VSPC
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#4 TSS/370 source archive now available
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#47 PL/? History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#54 Shipwrecks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004n.html#0 RISCs too close to hardware?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004n.html#17 RISCs too close to hardware?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#74 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#38 storage key question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005q.html#19 HASP/ASP JES/JES2/JES3

all sort of past posts mentioning edgar, rexx, and/or xedit:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#11 REXX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#22 CP spooling & programming technology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#00 old mainframes & text processing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#29 20th March 2000
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#30 20th March 2000
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#31 20th March 2000
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#32 20th March 2000
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#33 20th March 2000
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#41 Domainatrix - the final word
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#17 Where's all the VMers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#27 VM/SP sites that allow free access?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#14 IBM's announcement on RVAs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#30 perceived forced conversion from cp/m to ms-dos in late 80's
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#60 Estimate JCL overhead
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#10 5-player Spacewar?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#8 VM: checking some myths.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#1 History of Microsoft Word (and wordprocessing in general)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#17 History of Microsoft Word (and wordprocessing in general)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#18 History of Microsoft Word (and wordprocessing in general)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#22 History of Microsoft Word (and wordprocessing in general)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#26 Help needed on conversion from VM to OS390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#35 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#44 3270 protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#46 3270 protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#22 When did full-screen come to VM/370?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#33 XEDIT on MVS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#38 CMS under MVS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#43 FA: Early IBM Software and Reference Manuals
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#11 OCO
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#26 Open Architectures ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#36 Movies with source code (was Re: Movies with DEC minis)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#45 REXX and its designer (was: IBM 7090 instruction set)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#29 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#27 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#57 Amiga Rexx
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#58 Amiga Rexx
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#59 Amiga Rexx
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#60 Amiga Rexx
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#35 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#58 history of CMS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#3 HONE, Aid, misc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#83 Summary: Robots of Doom
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#85 Summary: Robots of Doom
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#9 Avoiding JCL Space Abends
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#18 Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#38 GOTOs cross-posting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#52 Dump Annalysis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#39 Moore law
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#24 Original K & R C Compilers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#71 bps loader, was PLX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#51 E-mail from the OS-390 ????
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#2 IBM OS source code
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#39 20th anniversary of the internet (fwd)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#62 Card Columns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#19 Card Columns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#45 hyperblock drift, was filesystem structure (long warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#43 Early attempts at console humor?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#75 The relational model and relational algebra - why did SQL become the industry standard?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#78 The relational model and relational algebra - why did SQL become the industry standard?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#22 Which Editor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#25 Which Editor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#29 MP cost effectiveness
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#75 History of project maintenance tools -- what and when?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#3 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#4 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#46 death of Edgar F. (Ted) Codd
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#52 Mercury News 04-20-2003 Computer pioneer, dead at 79,
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#67 death of Edgar F. (Ted) Codd
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#58 assembler performance superiority: a given
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#2 Rexx vs. Batch
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#63 SPXTAPE status from REXX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#14 Seven of Nine
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003p.html#23 1960s images of IBM 360 mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#30 A POX on you, Dennis Ritchie!!!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#33 A POX on you, Dennis Ritchie!!!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#2 Oldest running code
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#9 TSS/370 binary distribution now available
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#34 Playing games in mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#35 Computer-oriented license plates
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#61 IBM 360 memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#17 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#19 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#20 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#21 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#26 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#41 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#42 REXX still going strong after 25 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#10 What is the truth ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#35 The attack of the killer mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#37 command line switches [Re: [REALLY OT!] Overuse of symbolic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#42 command line switches [Re: [REALLY OT!] Overuse of symbolic constants]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#47 PL/? History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#49 Adventure game (was:PL/? History (was Hercules))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#10 Possibly stupid question for you IBM mainframers... :-)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#39 SEC Tests Technology to Speed Accounting Analysis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004k.html#34 August 23, 1957
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#33 Shipwrecks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#35 Shipwrecks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#47 IBM Open Sources Object Rexx
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#53 4GHz is the glass ceiling?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#54 Shipwrecks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#12 some recent archeological threads in ibm-main, comp.arch, & alt.folklore.computers ... fyi
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#36 Integer types for 128-bit addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#57 Integer types for 128-bit addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#3 History of C
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004q.html#63 creat
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005.html#8 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005b.html#45 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005c.html#50 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#72 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#74 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005e.html#0 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#14 Where should the type information be: in tags and descriptors
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#15 Where should the type information be: in tags and descriptors
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#34 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#13 Today's mainframe--anything to new?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#37 Software for IBM 360/30
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#41 Systems Programming for 8 Year-olds
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#42 Systems Programming for 8 Year-olds
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#43 Systems Programming for 8 Year-olds
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#41 TSO replacement?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#58 Q ALLOC PAGE vs. CP Q ALLOC vs ESAMAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#36 Code density and performance?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#45 Anyone know whether VM/370 EDGAR is still available anywhere?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#47 Anyone know whether VM/370 EDGAR is still available anywhere?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005o.html#38 SHARE reflections
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#1 Intel engineer discusses their dual-core design
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#19 address space
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005r.html#12 Intel strikes back with a parallel x86 design
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005r.html#29 Job seperators
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#28 MVCIN instruction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#50 Various kinds of System reloads

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Jim Bohnsack
EXEC2 vs. REXX

exec2 was an enhanced exec command scripting language. execu2/rexx
arguments was based on using rexx as just another command scripting
facility.

very early on, i wanted to demonstrate that rexx could be used as an
application development language. the vm/cms dump processing facility
was a few score k-lines of assembler with a dept. in endicott
supporting it. i wanted to demonstrate that working half time over
three months, i could use rexx to re-implement the facility from
scratch with ten times the function and ten times the performance
.... neat trick by itself for an interpreted language compared to pure
assembler ... turns out part of the trick was a 120 line assembler
stub routine used by dumprx for the actual interfacing to dump files.

misc. collectes posts on the subject
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#dumprx

eventually, at one point it was in use by nearly all internal vm
locations as well as vm PSRs.

[Jim Bohnsack]

DUMPRX was there in the bad old days of VM/SP when we really needed it.
Jim

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler

Post by Jim Bohnsack
EXEC2 vs. REXX

exec2 was an enhanced exec command scripting language. execu2/rexx
arguments was based on using rexx as just another command scripting
facility.
very early on, i wanted to demonstrate that rexx could be used as an
application development language. the vm/cms dump processing facility
was a few score k-lines of assembler with a dept. in endicott
supporting it. i wanted to demonstrate that working half time over
three months, i could use rexx to re-implement the facility from
scratch with ten times the function and ten times the performance
.... neat trick by itself for an interpreted language compared to pure
assembler ... turns out part of the trick was a 120 line assembler
stub routine used by dumprx for the actual interfacing to dump files.
misc. collectes posts on the subject
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#dumprx
eventually, at one point it was in use by nearly all internal vm
locations as well as vm PSRs.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

Jim Bohnsack
Cornell Univ.
[phone]

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Jim Bohnsack
DUMPRX was there in the bad old days of VM/SP when we really needed it.

for whatever reason they decided to not release it to customers.
however, i was eventually given permission to give a detailed
implementation talk at share (in hopes that other people might
duplicate the effort).

the talk was in the heyday of the oco arguments and i got the
satisfaction of pointing out that if dumprx would have shipped as a
product, nearly all of the source code would have had to ship with it
(since it was source code interpreted rexx).

[Wayne T Smith]

SHOW (SHOWFILE) is nearly of age to vote, but I fondly recall passionate
design discussions we had on whether a page scroll should have a whole
new set of lines, or whether the bottom (top) line of the display should
move to the top (bottom). We went with the latter to keep it like
Xedit, but often I have wished for a switch to allow user choice.
Unfortunately, Mike and I were discussing so loudly, we didn't think of
this nice "compromise". ;-)

cheers, wayne

Post by Jim Bohnsack
This falls in the realm of a "religious" argument. 25 years ago, I
EDGAR vs. XEDIT
EXEC2 vs. REXX
ISPF vs. CMS
SPF editor vs. XEDIT
right-left scrolling of a window (should the outside frame go right or
left or the inside content go right or left)
PFK 4/5 vs. PFK 8/7 (or was it 7/8--no it was 8/7)
the REXX function CENTRE vs CENTER (Mike solved it by giving us both)

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Jim Bohnsack
I agree with you FULIST was wonderful and was a great improvement over the
watered down FLIST. The full strength BROWSE, it's companion, is also an
improvement over the IBM provided version of BROWSE. C'mon, IBM, you put
out IOS3270, which was the other leg of the stool that Theo Alkema, RIP,
provided internally but the real FULIST and BROWSE would also be
improvements.

long ago and far away, fulist/browse were available as 5785-HAB

somewhere along the way some employee did a version for the ibm/pc
released under the productivity family of personally developed
software.

archaic trivia ... the service processor for 3090 was a pair of 4361s
running a highly customized version of vm370 release 6 and all the
service screens were done in ios3270.

earlier i had redone the fulist, browse, and ios3270 source code so
that i could reside in shared segment (early 1979). this was returned
to Theo and integrated into standard release and shipped later in
1979.

from somewhere long ago and far away:

To: Users of FULIST/BROWSE (5785-HAB)

Subject: DCSS version of FULIST/BROWSE

You will shortly be receiving 20 class S DISK DUMP files.
This files comprise the latest levels of FULIST and BROWSE
released by Theo Alkema.

File SHIPHAB EXEC contains a list of all files being sent to you.
Note that no modules are included in this list. You will have
to generate the modules from the appropriate TEXT decks.

Please read files 5785HAB MEMO and SHIPHAB EXEC for instructions
on how to create the new modules. You may create either DCSS or
non-DCSS versions of FULIST and BROWSE.

As usual, please send comments, problem reports, and sugguestions
directly to Theo Alkema at UITHONE(MAINTCMS).

... snip ...

the full shared segment stuff i had done internally which was part of
set of updates that also included memory mapped filesystem support
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#mmap

originally on cp67 and then ported to vm370. a small subset of the
full shared segment stuff was released as "DCSS" in vm370 release 3.
misc. collected postings related to the full shared segment segment
implementation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#adcon

which included being able to load shared segment images from "MODULE"
executable files located on cms paged map filesystem.

misc. past postings referecing fulist, browse, and/or Theo:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#8 Theo Alkema
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#9 Theo Alkema
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#21 Theo Alkema
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#25 Early computer games
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#20 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#32 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004f.html#23 command line switches [Re: [REALLY OT!] Overuse of symbolic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004q.html#63 creat
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#14 Where should the type information be: in tags and descriptors

[Alan Ackerman]

I wasn't interested in starting a religious argument -- I just wanted to
point out to Ian that he had alternatives: FILELIST instead of FULIST and
XEDIT instead of the internal BROWSE.

I was hoping someone with familiarity with all 3 (FILELIST/FULIST/FLIST)
would jump in and explain why FULIST is better (if it is). Otherwise,
there's not much point in asking IBM to release FULIST. Ditto for the
internal BROWSE versus XEDIT/BROWSE.

Anyone who has seen it -- what's so great about FULIST?

Post by Jim Bohnsack
This falls in the realm of a "religious" argument. 25 years ago, I heard
EDGAR vs. XEDIT
EXEC2 vs. REXX
ISPF vs. CMS
SPF editor vs. XEDIT
right-left scrolling of a window (should the outside frame go right or

left

Post by Jim Bohnsack
or the inside content go right or left)
PFK 4/5 vs. PFK 8/7 (or was it 7/8--no it was 8/7)
the REXX function CENTRE vs CENTER (Mike solved it by giving us both)
Jim

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Alan Ackerman
I wasn't interested in starting a religious argument -- I just wanted to
point out to Ian that he had alternatives: FILELIST instead of FULIST and
XEDIT instead of the internal BROWSE.
I was hoping someone with familiarity with all 3 (FILELIST/FULIST/FLIST)
would jump in and explain why FULIST is better (if it is). Otherwise,
there's not much point in asking IBM to release FULIST. Ditto for the
internal BROWSE versus XEDIT/BROWSE.
Anyone who has seen it -- what's so great about FULIST?

recent refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#39 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#40 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#41 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#42 FULIST

big thing about fulist, browse, ios3270, ... were that they were
small, compact, and extremely efficient. early on fulist & browse
would fit in 8k. this contributed to making early ports to ibm/pc
environment so easy. by the time filelist came around, fulist had
gained some amount of maturity and it was straight-forward for people
to do a fulist clone in the filelist implementation (as well as
rdrlist).

this is analogous to my comments about doing dumprx as a dumpscan
clone ... using rexx (and eventually offering both line-mode and
xedit-mode) ... although offering 10-times the function and 10-times
the performance (some slight of hand to get significant increased
efficiency in interpreted rexx over hard coded assembler). past
references
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#dumprx

small, compact and extremely efficient used to be a lot more important
than it is now. i frequently now work in gnuemacs ... and regularly
use dir (and nobody will claim that gnuemacs is small, compact, and
extremely efficient).

at one point i had done a green/blue/yellow card implementation in
ios3270 ... these days it would be done in html and use a browser
(again significantly more bloated implementation than ios3720).. blue
card was for 360/67 and had the virtual memory add-ons to base 360,
but there was a lot of spare ... so it threw in detailed sense
information for various devices) ... minor past reference:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#60 Living legends

it isn't so much an either/or regarding FULIST and FILELIST ... modulo
the compact/efficiency issues. FULIST was relatively mature by the
time people started making clones of it, like FILELIST (the old line
about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery).

another example is vmsg. vmsg was one of the early email clients (and
all assembler implementation). . something like a version 0.6 of the
code was borrowed by the PROFs group and used as the guts of PROFs
mail handling. Later when an issue was raised as to the origin of the
PROFS code ... it was pointed out that every PROFS message in the
world had the initials of the VMSG author as a comment addenda out at
the end of the tag field. in any case, after some years, I did a
VMSG-clone implemented in REXX and XEDIT. Later, I added SMTP/RFC822
input/output processing.

misc. past postings w/vmsg reference:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#35 why is there an "@" key?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#46 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#35 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#39 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#40 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#14 Mail system scalability (Was: Re: Itanium troubles)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#58 history of CMS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#64 history of CMS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#4 HONE, ****, misc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#34 VSE (Was: Re: Refusal to change was Re: LE and COBOL)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#45 hyperblock drift, was filesystem structure (long warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#65 801 (was Re: Reviving Multics
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#56 Goodbye PROFS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#13 Mainframe Virus ????

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
the end of the tag field. in any case, after some years, I did a
VMSG-clone implemented in REXX and XEDIT. Later, I added SMTP/RFC822
input/output processing.

for even more drift ... early on I was doing all this email stuff.
I had a 15,000 entry nickname file that eventually grew to over
25,000. I was doing a lot of early online telephone book stuff
(which was also borrowed by the PROFs group).

Jim Gray and I (and others) were sitting around drinking one
friday night (before he left for tandem) ... back in the days
of system/r (original relational/sql)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#systemr

talking about what silver-bullet application could we come up with
that would tempt a lot of non-computer literate employees to start
using online computing (besides the quickly emerging email
application) ... and came up with the idea of a highly efficient
online corporate telephone book. so the ground rules were two fold
... it had to be blazingly fast, the application had to take less than
one-week to implement and the administration processing gorp for
keeping all the data up-to-date and distributing it ... had to take
less than one-person day per month.

so the online phone book routine used radix search on sorted cms files
... which gave a noticeable improvement over binary search (we
actually calcualted letter frequency distribution for names and used
that for a modified radix search).

so what does this have to do with implementing a vmsg-clone in rexx &
xedit? well default vmsg was to do sequential scan of nickname files
... and this was starting to be somewhat more time-consuming when you
had a 25,000 entry nickname file (which was much smallter than the
aggregate number of entries in the collected online corporate
telephone directories). so a trivial addition to vmsg-clone
implemented in rexx ... was to do a modified radix-search ... similar
to the implementation done for the corporate telephone directories.

misc. past posts mentioning the online telephone directories and/or
modified radix search (using calculate letter frequency):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#31 High Speed Data Transport (HSDT)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#88 Unix hard links
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#33 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#0 A POX on you, Dennis Ritchie!!!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#13 Mainframe Virus ????
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005c.html#38 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005c.html#43 History of performance counters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#3 Flat Query
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#4 Flat Query

this helped contribute to a different problem. at the time, there was
supposedly an issue with the availability of 3270 terminals ... and
there was requirement for division vp sign-off for internal 3270
requests and associated delays could be six months. there was this
point in time when middle-management discovered that higher level
executives were starting to use online email ... and all of a
suddened, every middle manager in the company seemed to demand an
immediate 3270 terminal on their desk. this, in turn, pre-empted the
whole six month 3270 terminal provisioning process for those
programmers that actually needed 3270 for things like development
(effectively six months of internal 3270 terminal deliveries were
pre-empted).

to help breakup that log-jam, we put together a business analysis that
3-year fully depreciated 3270 capital costs turned out to be less than
monthly phone expense ... and nobody was suggesting that it should
require division vp approval whether an employee got a phone on their
desk or not.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
the end of the tag field. in any case, after some years, I did a
VMSG-clone implemented in REXX and XEDIT. Later, I added SMTP/RFC822
input/output processing.

for even more drift ... early on I was doing all this email stuff.
I had a 15,000 entry nickname file that eventually grew to over
25,000. I was doing a lot of early online telephone book stuff
(which was also borrowed by the PROFs group).
Jim Gray and I (and others) were sitting around drinking one
friday night (before he left for tandem) ... back in the days
of system/r (original relational/sql)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#systemr
talking about what silver-bullet application could we come up with
that would tempt a lot of non-computer literate employees to start
using online computing (besides the quickly emerging email
application) ... and came up with the idea of a highly efficient
online corporate telephone book. so the ground rules were two fold
.... it had to be blazingly fast, the application had to take less than
one-week to implement and the administration processing gorp for
keeping all the data up-to-date and distributing it ... had to take
less than one-person day per month.
so the online phone book routine used radix search on sorted cms files
.... which gave a noticeable improvement over binary search (we
actually calcualted letter frequency distribution for names and used
that for a modified radix search).

hmmm...I wonder if a checksum could have been used for an index.
It would make a change to any file immediately flagged.
The owners of those files would have to be the people who
answered the phones. I don't remember how nor who generated
our phone books.

<snip>

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
this helped contribute to a different problem. at the time, there was
supposedly an issue with the availability of 3270 terminals ... and
there was requirement for division vp sign-off for internal 3270
requests and associated delays could be six months. there was this
point in time when middle-management discovered that higher level
executives were starting to use online email ... and all of a
suddened, every middle manager in the company seemed to demand an
immediate 3270 terminal on their desk. this, in turn, pre-empted the
whole six month 3270 terminal provisioning process for those
programmers that actually needed 3270 for things like development
(effectively six months of internal 3270 terminal deliveries were
pre-empted).
to help breakup that log-jam, we put together a business analysis that
3-year fully depreciated 3270 capital costs turned out to be less than
monthly phone expense ... and nobody was suggesting that it should
require division vp approval whether an employee got a phone on their
desk or not.

WE had similar braindead managers. <ahem> The ones who
thought that developers shouldn't have easy access to TTYs
came from an IBM card environment. We also had product
managers who would promise a customer the first piece of
gear off the manufacturing line which makes a marvelous
and expensive boat anchor without the software.

JMF was supposed to do work on the Alpha. It took them six
fucking months to get him a system. When he could no longer
burp to talk, he was supposed to get a speech device that
would hook up to the laptop. He finally got it almost too
late. I talked him into getting a device from Children's
Hospital instead. He was able to "speak" by typing at
the TTY screen for six months before the DEC speech device
was given to him. These idiots missed out on six months
of active hardware feedback and software development.
But, heaven forbid, that he be allowed to do something
useful.

/BAH


/BAH

[l***@garlic.com]

Post by j***@aol.com
hmmm...I wonder if a checksum could have been used for an index.
It would make a change to any file immediately flagged.
The owners of those files would have to be the people who
answered the phones. I don't remember how nor who generated
our phone books.

the combination of sorting the file and having the letter frequency
distribution for names provided an implicit index with no disk space
index overhead. this was still in the era when the physical database
guys (stl, ims, etc) were dis'ing the original relational/sql activity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#systemr

as the real relational indexes was doubling the physical disk space
required ... back in the days when that was important.

radix search with additional knowledge of actual letter frequency
distribution for names met that within 2-3 probes, things would be
within the correct physical record. relational index search by itself
could require several physical disk reads ... just of the index ...
before even getting around to physical read of the actual data.

this was still all late 70s. the thing that help turn the tide for
relational in the 80s ... was

!) large increase in available disk space ... so the index space
requirements became much less of an issue

2) large increase in real storage ... being able to cache indexes. in
memory so there was much less disk i/o penalty for doing index lookup.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by l***@garlic.com

Post by j***@aol.com
hmmm...I wonder if a checksum could have been used for an index.
It would make a change to any file immediately flagged.
The owners of those files would have to be the people who
answered the phones. I don't remember how nor who generated
our phone books.

the combination of sorting the file and having the letter frequency
distribution for names provided an implicit index with no disk space
index overhead. this was still in the era when the physical database
guys (stl, ims, etc) were dis'ing the original relational/sql activity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#systemr
as the real relational indexes was doubling the physical disk space
required ... back in the days when that was important.
radix search with additional knowledge of actual letter frequency
distribution for names met that within 2-3 probes, things would be
within the correct physical record. relational index search by itself
could require several physical disk reads ... just of the index ...
before even getting around to physical read of the actual data.

Did you also have to index ala phone number? Using the data
base for the actual phone switching would have the side effect
of keeping the listing up-to-date.

IBM also had thousands of employees; I would suspect 50% more
for phones not associated with a human but a facility.

Post by l***@garlic.com
this was still all late 70s. the thing that help turn the tide for
relational in the 80s ... was
!) large increase in available disk space ... so the index space
requirements became much less of an issue

Cheaper memory would also help. The wrong page would always be
the one in core.

Post by l***@garlic.com
2) large increase in real storage ... being able to cache indexes. in
memory so there was much less disk i/o penalty for doing index lookup.

ISTR something about arranging the index and what it pointed to
carefully...or maybe I'm remembering a dream I had one night.

/BAH

[Jim Bohnsack]

Lynn--You said in the post below that you don't have a copy of the IOS3270
version of the ref card. I have the GCARD PACKAGE, dated 86/02/17 by Steve
Gobson. I assume that he picked it up from you or someone at some
point. Do you want it?
Jim

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
at one point i had done a green/blue/yellow card implementation in
ios3270 ... these days it would be done in html and use a browser
(again significantly more bloated implementation than ios3720).. blue
card was for 360/67 and had the virtual memory add-ons to base 360,
but there was a lot of spare ... so it threw in detailed sense
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#60 Living legends

Jim Bohnsack
Cornell Univ.
[phone]

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Jim Bohnsack
Lynn--You said in the post below that you don't have a copy of the
IOS3270 version of the ref card. I have the GCARD PACKAGE, dated
86/02/17 by Steve Gobson. I assume that he picked it up from you or
someone at some point. Do you want it?

I had originally done gcard (ios3270) in july 1979. later when we were
doing hsdt
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt

i added sense information to it ... including sense for HYPERChannel
A220 adatpers ... this started when when IMS developers were being
relocated to remobte bldg. from STL ... and they hated the idea of
putting up with remote 3270 slowness. I did the drivers for
HYPERChannel to use it as channel extension over high-speed m'wave
link supporting "local" 3270s at the remote bldg (to the datacenter in
stl). turns out the the overall performance was actually better with
3270s over HYPERchannel channel extension than when they were directly
attached.

later i did the rfc1044 A220 driver for the original ibm tcp/ip
support. The standard tcp/ip (with 8232) would get about 44kbytes/ sec
and consume a 390 proceessor. With a little tuning at cray research
between a cray and a 4341 ... we got full (4341) channel speed
(1mbyte/sec) sustained, using only a modest amount of the 4341
processor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#1044


in any case, i somehow managed to loose my original copy of gcard and
would like a copy ... i'm wondering how easy it will be to convert to
html and put on garlic.

yes, i would like a copy (does it still have a220 and other device
sense information?)>

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
later i did the rfc1044 A220 driver for the original ibm tcp/ip
support. The standard tcp/ip (with 8232) would get about 44kbytes/ sec
and consume a 390 proceessor. With a little tuning at cray research
between a cray and a 4341 ... we got full (4341) channel speed
(1mbyte/sec) sustained, using only a modest amount of the 4341
processor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#1044

ok, a very quick and dirty conversion of the gcard.ioslib file
to html
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html

[Gregg Reed]

43x90?! that got me a thinking and a Notepad'n someFN.ws file... wow!
Why'd I think "variable screen size" meant a choice of 24x80, 32x80,
43x80, 27x132 and maybe 48x80, 62x160 or 24x132? Is it any XxY between
24x80 and 62x160, 1920-9920 bytes? Though, it may be just a rhetorical
question, as I'm liking 62x140 a lot. ... will certainly cut down on the
TOP/BOTTOM/BACK/UP/DOWN/RIGHT/LEFT 0's.. now to find a slightly larger
font...
Gregg
"No plan survives execution"



Alan Altmark <***@us.ibm.com>
Sent by: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions <VMESA-***@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU>
11/29/2005 17:05
Please respond to
VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions <VMESA-***@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU>


To
VMESA-***@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
cc

Subject
Re: FULIST






On Tuesday, 11/29/2005 at 03:29 CST, Alan Ackerman

Post by Alan Ackerman
I wasn't interested in starting a religious argument -- I just wanted to
point out to Ian that he had alternatives: FILELIST instead of FULIST

and

Post by Alan Ackerman
XEDIT instead of the internal BROWSE.
I was hoping someone with familiarity with all 3 (FILELIST/FULIST/FLIST)
would jump in and explain why FULIST is better (if it is). Otherwise,
there's not much point in asking IBM to release FULIST. Ditto for the
internal BROWSE versus XEDIT/BROWSE.
Anyone who has seen it -- what's so great about FULIST?

You used the word "great". You are asking for a religious argument.
Perhaps you meant "different"? A quick look reveals
- FULIST respects my 43x90 screen size; FLIST does not, collapsing back to

24x80.
- FULIST has "exclude"
- FULIST has a nicer help facility
- FULIST has a better profile facility (colors, titles, options, PF keys)

Personally, I don't care about the differences since I use FILELIST.
(FWIW, BROWSE hates my screen size, too. Not that I care. I don't.
Really. I only use it for Really Big Files anyway.)

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

[Gary Eheman]

Without a doubt my favorite feature of FULIST vs FLIST was the ability
to just keep on typing the long command I was entering next to a file
without having to hit a PFKEY just to unprotect more of the line so that
I could keep typing the command. Initial sorting by date through
profile specification was a close second.

I vaguely recall also that during the HPO days when we were cramming
hundreds and hundreds of concurrent PROFS and OfficeVision on stressed
out SNA networks, saving 3270 transactions when everyone on the system
was using a tool could be significant. I believe the internal BROWSE
would automatically NOT clear the screen when invoked from FULIST and
would just smoothly transition the display without your seeing a blank
screen with "RUNNING" in the lower right hand corner in between. Yes,
there is a "noclear" option for the external BROWSE, too, these days.
But there are profile contortions required to get that behavior with
FLIST and BROWSE if I recall correctly. I know I was modifying the
FULIST $PROFILE on the system disks to also include the NOCLEAR option
of XEDIT.

Having FULIST, BROWSE, and IOS3270 all running from a shared DCSS for
everyone was also an appreciated feature in those memory constrained and
slower DASD HPO days.

From the cobweb corner, I recall sending Theo a source mod sometime in
the late 80's that if applied would change the scroll movement from the
default to the "other" metaphor as described earlier by Lynn (move the
window? or move the data beneath the window?). I recall he included it
in the internal distribution package for site optional application in
the next release he sent out. I doubt anybody used it, but I felt
honored that he didn't write back and say get out of here with that junk.
--
Gary Eheman
Fundamental Software, Inc.
http://www.funsoft.com