VM/ESA 2.4 under z/VM 5.x

[Dan Andrada]

Hello Listers!

Just wanted to find out if anyone has been able to run VM/ESA 2.4 as a
guest under z/VM 5.x - any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Alan Ackerman]

I hope you can find someone who has tried it.

We haven't tried it. It certainly isn't supported. What hardware are you planning to run on? VM
does not virtualize everything (in fact, cannot). z/VM 5.x is supported only on zSeries and System
z9. VM/ESA 2.4.0 does not (officially) run on a z9.

It might work, especially if you aren't using anything that is hardware dependent. (For example,
370 guests will NOT work.)

The last release of VM I can find that was listed (in the GI manual) as supporting VM/ESA 2.4.0
guests is z/VM 4.3.0. The GI manual includes the caveat:

"In general, an operating system, version, or release is supported as a guest of
VM only on hardware (processors, DASD, and other devices) for which support
has been announced for that operating system, version, or release to run native,
in an LPAR, or as a guest of VM."

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:50:56 -0600, Dan Andrada <***@MERLENORMAN.COM> wrote:

>Hello Listers!
>
>Just wanted to find out if anyone has been able to run VM/ESA 2.4 as a
>guest under z/VM 5.x - any info would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!
>===========================================================
=============

[Adam Thornton]

On Mar 14, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Alan Ackerman wrote:

> I hope you can find someone who has tried it.
>
> We haven't tried it. It certainly isn't supported. What hardware
> are you
> planning to run on? VM
> does not virtualize everything (in fact, cannot). z/VM 5.x is
> supported o
> nly on zSeries and System
> z9. VM/ESA 2.4.0 does not (officially) run on a z9.

You could certainly run it under Hercules under z/Linux, although
there are probably licensing issues, since presumably VM/ESA 2.4 is
not licensed to *that* processor.

Adam

[Mark D Vandale]

We had a VM/ESA 2.4 system running as a guest under z/VM 5.1on a z800 &
z890. No problems.



Thanks,
Mark Vandale

MCS z/VM Team Lead
Office: [phone]
Cell: [phone]
CSC


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Alan Ackerman
<***@B
ANKOFAMERICA.COM> To
Sent by: VM/ESA VMESA-***@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
and z/VM cc
Discussions
<VMESA-***@LISTSERV Subject
.UARK.EDU> Re: VM/ESA 2.4 under z/VM 5.x


03/14/2006 11:51
PM


Please respond to
VM/ESA and z/VM
Discussions
<VMESA-***@LISTSERV
.UARK.EDU>






I hope you can find someone who has tried it.

We haven't tried it. It certainly isn't supported. What hardware are you
planning to run on? VM
does not virtualize everything (in fact, cannot). z/VM 5.x is supported
only on zSeries and System
z9. VM/ESA 2.4.0 does not (officially) run on a z9.

It might work, especially if you aren't using anything that is hardware
dependent. (For example,
370 guests will NOT work.)

The last release of VM I can find that was listed (in the GI manual) as
supporting VM/ESA 2.4.0
guests is z/VM 4.3.0. The GI manual includes the caveat:

"In general, an operating system, version, or release is supported as a
guest of
VM only on hardware (processors, DASD, and other devices) for which support
has been announced for that operating system, version, or release to run
native,
in an LPAR, or as a guest of VM."

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:50:56 -0600, Dan Andrada <***@MERLENORMAN.COM>
wrote:

>Hello Listers!
>
>Just wanted to find out if anyone has been able to run VM/ESA 2.4 as a
>guest under z/VM 5.x - any info would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!
>===========================================================
=============

[O'Brien, Dennis L]

Although this doesn't answer the original poster's question, I think
Mike made an error. You can IPL z/VM 3.1.0 or 4.x under VM/ESA, because
those z/VM releases can still run in 31-bit mode. z/VM 5.x cannot run
as a guest of VM/ESA.



Dennis

"Bad facts make bad laws." -- Frank Zappa, at the PMRC hearings




________________________________

From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions [mailto:VMESA-***@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On
Behalf Of Mike Walter
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 09:17
To: VMESA-***@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: VM/ESA 2.4 under z/VM 5.x



For those who weren't reading closely enough, Dan asked if he could run
an out-of-support VM/ESA 2.4.0 system as a guest under a supported z/VM
5.x host system.

I can't think of a single reason that this should not work. We still
have our old VM/ESA 240 res packs spinning in the data center. I
attached them to my own ID (R/O - to keep from changing anything), and
IPLed them from my ID up to the first prompt (COLD, WARM, etc.). That
VM/ESA 240 guest IPL was performed on a z800 running z/VM 510.

The architecture for z/VM 510 does not have anything specific to prevent
the IPL of a VM/ESA system. Now going the other way -- trying to IPL a
64-bit z/VM anything under VM/ESA will *not* work, since VM/ESA does not
support the 64-bit addressing required by zArchitecture.

So... if Dan was asking because he needs to spend some time converting
apps from VM/ESA to z/VM 5.x, and cannot set up another LPAR in which to
install z/VM 5.x, then yes, you can still run your old VM/ESA 240 system
as a guest of z/VM 5.x. But letting general users access the VM/ESA 240
guest will be different, as would accessing 1st-level hardware devices
(e.g. tapes drives). Maybe a little more information about the need
would yield a more thorough answer.

Mike Walter
Hewitt Associates
The opinions expressed herein are mine alone, not my employer's.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:50:56 -0600, Dan Andrada
<***@MERLENORMAN.COM
> wrote:

>Hello Listers!
>
>Just wanted to find out if anyone has been able to run VM/ESA 2.4 as a
>guest under z/VM 5.x - any info would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!




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[Adam Thornton]

On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Mike Walter wrote:
> The architecture for z/VM 510 does not have anything specific to
> prevent the IPL of a VM/ESA system. Now going the other way --
> trying to IPL a 64-bit z/VM anything under VM/ESA will *not* work,
> since VM/ESA does not support the 64-bit addressing required by
> zArchitecture.
>

From the Ludicrous Emulation Office, you could always run Linux on
your VM/ESA system, run Hercules emulating a z/Series box, and run z/
VM there. If you have licenses for 2.4 and z/VM 5.1 on the same
hardware, which might be tricky.

I have here a snapshot, from back when our H70 ran z/VM 4.3. It's a
31-bit system, I'm running 31-bit z/Linux, and inside that I'm
running Hercules, inside of which I'm running z/VM 4.3 in 64-bit
mode. (It is my belief that this is legal, as I'm running 4.3 on the
processor it's licensed to, and there is no limitation I'm aware of
in our licensing agreement restricting what the intervening virtual
machine layers can be--note that this would NOT be legal with an ADCD
(did I get that name right?) license, since that *does* restrict what
you can run it on.)

http://www.fsf.net/~adam/z900-on-S390-Desktop.png

The answer to the question, "do I want to do this?" is a resounding
NO. This burns UNBELIEVABLE amounts of CPU, and the 64-bit system
runs too slowly to be useful for anything. But it sure does look cool.

Adam

[Tom Duerbusch]

One other tangent to this question.

Can the older system run on a z/890 system? I.E. with the dual channel
sets?

If it can, then it should be able to run under z/VM 5.1.
If not, then it can't.
z/VM 5.1 runs 31 bit operating systems just fine. Just look at VSE.
But, even when running under z/VM, the VSE systems had to have the dual
channel set support. There is a very raw PTF for VSE systems prior to
VSE/ESA 2.5 (which was the first to tollerate the dual channel sets) to
allow it to run on the newer hardware.

Tom Duerbusch
THD Consulting

>>> ***@hewitt.com 3/15/2006 11:16 AM >>>
For those who weren't reading closely enough, Dan asked if he could run
an
out-of-support VM/ESA 2.4.0 system as a guest under a supported z/VM
5.x
host system.

I can't think of a single reason that this should not work. We still
have
our old VM/ESA 240 res packs spinning in the data center. I attached
them
to my own ID (R/O - to keep from changing anything), and IPLed them
from
my ID up to the first prompt (COLD, WARM, etc.). That VM/ESA 240 guest

IPL was performed on a z800 running z/VM 510.

The architecture for z/VM 510 does not have anything specific to
prevent
the IPL of a VM/ESA system. Now going the other way -- trying to IPL a

64-bit z/VM anything under VM/ESA will *not* work, since VM/ESA does
not
support the 64-bit addressing required by zArchitecture.

So... if Dan was asking because he needs to spend some time converting

apps from VM/ESA to z/VM 5.x, and cannot set up another LPAR in which
to
install z/VM 5.x, then yes, you can still run your old VM/ESA 240
system
as a guest of z/VM 5.x. But letting general users access the VM/ESA
240
guest will be different, as would accessing 1st-level hardware devices

(e.g. tapes drives). Maybe a little more information about the need
would
yield a more thorough answer.

Mike Walter
Hewitt Associates
The opinions expressed herein are mine alone, not my employer's.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:50:56 -0600, Dan Andrada
<***@MERLENORMAN.COM
> wrote:

>Hello Listers!
>
>Just wanted to find out if anyone has been able to run VM/ESA 2.4 as a

>guest under z/VM 5.x - any info would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!



The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents
may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from
disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately
alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including
any attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the
contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited.

[Dan Andrada]

Thanks for the input everyone!

We're looking at getting off our 9221 box running VM/ESA 2.4 and VSE/ESA
2.6.3. We have merely two VSE guest machines and just a handful of
programmers that use CMS for developemnt purposes. No Linux, no production
VM guest machines other than the VSE guests. In our shop, VM is merely
a "hyper-visor" for our VSE guests. However, our programming staff does
not want to lose the various EXEC's they use in CMS and XEDIT.

We have a proposal to move to a z/890 processor to run z/VM and z/VSE to
stay in support. To ease our migration, I would like to bring up VM/ESA
2.4 as a second-level guest along with one or both of the VSE guests under
that, and progress from there. Even at the entry level configuration of a
z/890, its processing capacity is easily twice that of our current 9221
utilization, so I don't think I need to be too concerned about processing
overhead.

I've asked IBM about this and I've not been given a definitive answer. The
latest FAQ that IBM has provided on their z/VM site states that z/VM will
run VSE/ESA and VM/ESA as guests. The "Tell-All" for me would be to find
out if anyone has attempted or done this kind of migration.

So with that said, if anyone has any further information or experience in
doing a migration of this type, I would be very grateful for your input.

Thanks again!

[David Kreuter]

Hi Dan: Although you will have a great boost in performance power be
careful about the performance expectations of your 3rd level VSE
guests. Each time the VSE guest is dispatched you will be running a
"SIE under SIE" (virtual machines are always dispatched in processing
mode known as emulation mode - the instruction that places a CPU in
emulation mode is Start Interpretive Execution). In long gone releases
and hardware left by the curb this killed performance. Strides have been
made in this area but a 3rd level production dispatch - better measure
it carefully.

I have not done this on z boxes - so it may be tolerable. Best of luck
and let us on the list know how it goes.
What type of CPU usage do you have today?
David Kreuter

Dan Andrada wrote:

>Thanks for the input everyone!
>
>We're looking at getting off our 9221 box running VM/ESA 2.4 and VSE/ESA
>
>2.6.3. We have merely two VSE guest machines and just a handful of
>programmers that use CMS for developemnt purposes. No Linux, no productio
>n
>VM guest machines other than the VSE guests. In our shop, VM is merely
>
>a "hyper-visor" for our VSE guests. However, our programming staff does
>
>not want to lose the various EXEC's they use in CMS and XEDIT.
>
>We have a proposal to move to a z/890 processor to run z/VM and z/VSE to
>
>stay in support. To ease our migration, I would like to bring up VM/ESA
>
>2.4 as a second-level guest along with one or both of the VSE guests unde
>r
>that, and progress from there. Even at the entry level configuration of a
>
>z/890, its processing capacity is easily twice that of our current 9221
>
>utilization, so I don't think I need to be too concerned about processing
>
>overhead.
>
>I've asked IBM about this and I've not been given a definitive answer. Th
>e
>latest FAQ that IBM has provided on their z/VM site states that z/VM will
>
>run VSE/ESA and VM/ESA as guests. The "Tell-All" for me would be to find
>
>out if anyone has attempted or done this kind of migration.
>
>So with that said, if anyone has any further information or experience in
>
>doing a migration of this type, I would be very grateful for your input.
>
>Thanks again!
>
>
>
>
>